In April of 2005 – the collective brain trust of writers at 2 Walls Webzine started the massive undertaking of creating the impossible task of identifying the 25 greatest albums of the last 25 years. An email went out to the 2 Walls team, to see if there was a possibility of curating a collective agreement on which albums should be on that list. The list was eventually published on 2Walls.com. But that list is barely a shell of what should actually have been published: The email conversation. Below is the original thread, unedited, in all it's music snobbery glory. Enjoy. Walls: Yesterday I was talking with 2 Walls writer Brendon McCullin (or B-Mac as I like to call him) about an idea he had for an article. He mentioned that he might be interested in compiling a list of the greatest albums of the past 25 years. Although I’m supportive of nearly any “ideas” for articles for our site, I indicated two problems he may have to deal with. 1. People don’t take lists seriously anymore, and 2. Those same people who don’t take lists seriously will be the first people to bitch and moan about the list. Not to mention that Rolling Stone just put out a mother-of-all-lists issue, listing the greatest million albums of all time (or something like that). So, what are we going to learn from another music list? Well, B-Mac reminded me that a list of the greatest albums of the past 25 years would not include artists from the ‘60s and ‘70s – like The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Stones, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, The Beach Boys or Elvis. Hmm…interesting. So that leaves the ‘80s, ‘90s, and the first half of the millennium. Well, right off the bat I can’t even think of an album in the 80s I’d consider in a “greatest” list. Maybe a U2 or Prince album. The ‘90s and beyond would probably have to include things like Nevermind, OK Computer, Odelay, and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. But after that, I’d probably have to hurt my brain thinking about it. Then B-Mac stumps me by saying, “yeah, well chew on this: I’m not a fan of Radiohead or Wilco.” Whoa, whoa, whoa! What are we talking about here? The “Greatest Albums of the Past 25 Years”? Or “B-Mac’s Favorite Albums of the Past 25 years?” Not that either list would be any less controversial – but let’s get the guidelines straight. We also may need to define “greatest”. By “greatest” do we mean “most influential”? Because I think there are some great albums that had a huge influence on music – like Nirvana’s Nevermind and Radiohead’s OK Computer. But these bands where defined by those single albums, whereas with artists like U2 and Prince – I don’t think a single album influenced music so much as their entire careers did. I know this topic could easily start a heated discussion amongst strong-headed music fans, but if B-Mac doesn’t think OK Computer is that great and doesn’t want to include it on his list – that’s his right. He probably can’t argue that OK Computer didn’t have a huge influence on other artists, but he can certainly say it isn’t one of his favorite albums of the past 25 years. But just so you know – I’m including Stan Ridgway on my list of the “Most Influential Obscure Artists in the Past 23 Years.” B-Mac: In his blog, 2Walls' fearless leader Michael Walls mentions a discussion we've been having about a list I'm compiling. (I would give you a link to his blog, but I work on a Mac and for some reason can't create links on the blog.) The idea for the list came from my realization last week that it's been 25 since I began subscribing to Rolling Stone magazine. In order to honor the occasion, and because I thought it would be fun to do, I started thinking about the best albums of the past 25 years. Then I figured that just like RS or Entertainment Weekly, I might just as well do a list of what I consider the best 25 albums of the last 25 years. As it happens, doing the last 25 years is much harder than if you were to do the 25 years before that where you'd have to choose from the Beatles, Stones, Who, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Doors, Beach Boys, Grateful Dead, Graham Parsons, Velvet Underground, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Clash, Eagles, etc., etc., etc. You could use just the 10 year period between 1964-74 and fairly easily trump the choices available for the last 25 years. The first thing that I'm doing is coming up with ground rules. The first is that the album had to have been released after December 1980, since that's when I actually got my first RS subscription. Next is that it's my list so it's just my opinion. I have to be able to think of the album off the top of my head. If I think it's so great then I shouldn't have to go looking for it and it saves me from spending too much time thinking about it. The one exception is if someone mentions an album to me that I haven't thought of between now and when the list is done, since that also cuts down on my thinking. Next is that I'm going to limit it to one album by any particular artist, with the exception of (same wavelength alert, since these two were also mentioned by our Mr. Walls) U2 and Prince, who can each have 2 since they've each been at the very least interesting musically since their debuts, which, as it happens, were right around 1980. Then it's that if it's close in my opinion between two albums then the nod goes to the album that was more influential. Last is that I'm training myself not to downgrade something just because it was popular, like U2's The Joshua Tree or The Police's Synchronicity. Sometimes an album was popular not because the artist sold out but because it's some of the artist's strongest work. I was also outed in his blog as not being a fan of Radiohead and Wilco. It's true and I won't deny it. However, for the record I'm going to go back and relisten to OK, Computer and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, giving them extra consideration because so many people like them. They're only getting that treatment because I've heard them both through friends...as opposed to say any particular Pixies album that I've never heard in it's entirety. And also because I've noticed that there hasn't been much that I've liked in the last five years so maybe I need to be more open minded. I'm not going to post the initial list that I'm in the process of compiling -- which is pretty much just a list of any album that I can think of that I've liked since Jr. High -- but beyond the artists already mentioned it includes work by Nirvana, REM, Pearl Jam, Sonic Youth, Dr. Dre, Public Enemy, Don Henley, Lyle Lovett, The Mavericks, Tom Petty, Liz Phair, Depeche Mode, Beastie Boys and Beck. So, that's what's buzzing around my head during slow moments these days. If there's something that you want to mention to me, or if you just want an early jump on complaining about my choices before I even decide on the list, feel free to send that along to BMccullin@2Walls.com. Spinney: I dunno... are we talking most influential or most commercially successful here? If influence is the criterion, then I'm disappointed that there’s no mention of Talking Heads. Granted, I think 1979 was the year they put out Remain in Light, but wasn't Fear of Music released in '81? Also, Stop Making Sense, though a live album, was huge. Talking Heads were a HUGE influence on music. I'll also fall back on my love of Roxy Music. Great, influential band though never wildly successful commercially. They launched a genre, for crying out loud. And while Avalon is a beautiful piece of musical art, Manifesto may be their best ever. There was already a tip of the cap to PE, and that has to be It Takes a Nation of Millions... probably the greatest and most influential rap album of all time. I hate to give credit to Nirvana, but I can't deny their influence. Also, we'd have to include the godfathers of metal, Judas Priest. While I think their best stuff was turned out during the '70s, their influence was most felt with Screaming for Vengeance. All the metal of the '80s was spawned from that piece of vinyl. I dunno. I'll contribute this much (and I'll send a note to B-mac). I still have to wrap up the annoying commercials piece. There's still time to contribute, guys! B-Mac: OK, OK, I forgot about Talking Heads and Roxy Music...I'm still in the thinking stage, so they're now on the potential list. PE's It Takes A Nation is probably the more important work, but I think Fear of a Black Planet is better...just my opinion. I did debate it in my own head though. And, funny enough, I saw Judas Priest in concert on the Screaming For Vengeance tour. I don't know where I rank their music, but that was one of the best concerts that I've ever seen. Before they would do an encore they made the crowd chant their name and then changed the chant to "Judas Fuckin' Priest" midway through. Went on for at least 2-3 minutes. One of the coolest rock-and-roll moves I've ever seen. Orcutt: Sure, I'm in. It should be interesting because even though I know I'm supposed to, I never liked Talking Heads at all. And I'll have some annoying commercials stuff for you tomorrow. Curtice: I'm game. Couple things--I'm guessing we wouldn't use reissues or greatest hits? What about live albums? Are soundtracks eligible? Should we develop categories (rock, soul, metal, rap) or just lump them all together? Should we come to some consensus and rank 25, or should we all do our own separate 25, which might be more like 300? Lastly does anything by Hall & Oates count? We could be opening a pandora's box here. Webb: I really like this idea and hope that we do it. My only advice is to keep it simple and honest. Dictionary.com has 20 different definitions of "best" - and most of them are exactly what we should consider when we develop our lists. Don't worry about influence, sales or greatest hits. Just decide whether the album is one of the most "competent, complete, beneficial, desirable, excellent, superior, discriminating, attractive, full or good" album you've heard in the past 25 years. So what if you're best friend loves it. If you loved it, you would've listened to it with the same passion your friend did. I like the top of your head idea too. Typing as I go along, I think Nirvana, Jane's Addiction, Public Enemy, Fishbone, the Pixies, Radiohead, U2, Prince, Jesus & Mary Chain, Beck, Replacements, Pretenders, Jason & the Scorchers, Wilco, NWA, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Guns' N' Fuckin' Roses, Van Halen, The Cure, The Time, The Cult, The Clash, The Buzzcocks, The Beastie Boys, The Chemical Brothers, Roni Size, and on and on all belong on the list. Wow - sorry to pat myself on the back but that's a great list and that's 2 minutes of thinking about it. So I'm in and happy to help in putting it together. But let's not kid ourselves - it's been done, it's generic (and judging by the bands that have been tossed around it will be) and it probably won't give people some new ideas on music they should check out. But it will be a great list and good way to say this is where 2Walls stands musically. If you decide to spend time thinking about what should be on the list, here's a cool site that is a compilation of the most acclaimed albums of the entire rock'n'roll era - http://acclaimedmusic.net/.
Aaaaight......onwards & upwards..... Biff: Wait... is this rock only? There have been some highly influential albums in the non-rock world... off of the top of my head Buena Vista Social Club comes to mind (though it wasn't presenting anything actually new), as well as various classical releases - touches of Philip Glass' "Glassworks" can be heard in nearly every commercial and film score out there (released in 1982). And even though most people consider jazz "dead" certainly there are one or two records that since December 1980 that deserve to be present on the list - Stanton Moore comes immediately to mind, as do Medeski, Martin & Wood. If we're talking straight "rock" I would agree with B-mac's candidates so far though: Sonic Youth's Daydream Nation or Goo (or both?), REM's Document (or maybe Green). I would include: Head on the Door or Disintegration by the Cure. Without sounding like a music elitist, Yo La Tengo. Fugazi's Repeater needs to be on that list. Stuff that I think others might include but I wouldn't: Pixies, Replacements (though I expect to be flamed for including them - other than the nostalgia factor, I just don't see what the big deal with these guys is). Rage Against the Machine. Walls: Regarding the Pixies and Replacement (as per Biff's comments) -- apparently this isn't a clear-cut decision even for diehard fans. Webb, Orcutt and myself (with tipsy interjected commentary from my wife Deb) had a martini bar conversation this weekend about this very subject. Turns out, we have completely opposite opinions regarding WHICH Pixies and Replacement albums should be included. I always assumed Doolittle and Pleased To Meet Me were the obvious choices for "best" or "most influential" Pixies and Replacements albums. After all, they were the most commercially popular and most finely produced releases (up to that point in their careers) by these artists. An argument to which Webb likes to claim as the moment of "sell out" for both. Surfer Rosa and Let It Be are Mike's picks for best Pixies and Replacements albums. Oh...and I also learned that Orcutt really doesn't like the Talking Heads. At all. Greg: I absolutely agree that Stanton Moore's All Kooked Out should be on the list. Can we also get some love for De La Soul? Three Feet High and Rising is about as influential of a hip-hop as they come. Curtice: agree with many of the suggested picks...here's some deep thoughts...Some albums I can't listen to anymore. Like Nevermind. Pound for pound it's great, but like Zep's Stairway (which I can only listen to once every three years or so), Nevermind is too much. So's PJ's Ten. If Michael Jackson makes it, my heart is OTWall, but gotta be Thriller. Too huge. If Pixies, then I would go with Surfer Rosa. If The Cure, then definitely Disintegration. If U2, then Actung Baby; sorry Joshua. Fugazi...13 Songs! As far as VH goes--I'd skip 1984 and nominate the mightier Fair Warning. How about the killer soundtrack for Cameron Crowe's Singles? Speaking of soundtracks, Valley Girl? Fast Times? Bodyguard? (eh, but it sold like 25 million copies). Smashing Pumpkins Mellon Collie... Live Albums: Motorhead No Sleep Till Hammersmith? Iron Maiden Live After Death. Rap album: Paris Sleeping With The Enemy or LL Cool J Mama Said. Paul Simon Graceland? Fishbone In Your Face? Black Flag Damaged? RHCP~BSSM? Metallica Kill em All? The Police Zenyatta Mondatta? Dare I say Hootie? Okay really reaching... Money Mark Push The Button 1998. Motely Crue Shout at the Devil 1983. Fu Manchu King of the Road 1999. Satchel EDC 1994. Donnie The Colored Section 2003. Webb: Craig - you make some excellent suggestions here. And since you and I (and maybe 268 other people around the world) are the only ones who know and appreciate the music of Happy Chichester makes me think you're a man of taste. But the fact that you just brought Hootie & the Blowfish into a conversation about the best albums of the last 25 years means we have to expel you from 2Walls. We're all allowed to make mistakes, but certain nuclear mistakes must be punished and corrected immediately. So I'm sorry for being a music facist, but I hereby call for the removal of Craig Curtice from 2Walls.com. Maybe not a permanent removal. Perhaps just a 2 month slap on the hand. Or maybe just a censure voted. But thoughts of Hootie should NEVER enter the conversation again. Do I have a second? Orcutt: Nope. I never understood why people like Talking Heads. They always bored the crap out of me. Though I did see the Tom Tom Club about three years ago, and Tina Weymouth is REALLY hot. I think everyone has a few bands they know they are supposed to like but for some reason they just don't. Jimi Hendrix is another one for me. I've gotten so much crap over the years because I don't like his stuff at all, though I know he's hugely influential. Maybe the toughest album to choose is which Fishbone record. I think Reality of my Surroundings beats Truth and Soul by a mile but I know most people disagree. We should ALL be outsted. Just by chance I thought of Back in Black, and if we had missed that I think our list would have zero credibility. Walls: Alright, now this might get ugly, but now that two people have dragged Fishbone into this mix, I have to say that any selection that ISN'T Truth and Soul is completely wrong. Reality of my Surroundings is just a 46 minute angry political statement. While In Your Face never had the punch that their debut had. Truth and Soul is end-to-end kick-ass funky ska. Webb, I'll bring up the Hootie charge at the next shareholders meeting. I suspect some traditional Canadian gospel music might be on their way to Mr. Curtice's mailbox as a penalty. Webb: I accept and expect to get my first royalty/shareholders check from the banner advertising at that meeting! I knew this 2Walls thing was gonna pay off! And I'll drop my removal charge if Craig can tell us whether freezing cold, white people can really make "gospel" music. Truth & Soul is a must! But why don't we let B-Mac make out the list and THEN complain about what's missing..... Curtice: Hey now, I said, "Dare I". I despise Hootie too and know their dirty little secret. "Hold My Hand" and all those hit songs were accumulated over several years of EP's through Manifest Discs in SC. Thing is this "greatest hits" package hit right at the end of grunge and the beginning of popular cornball college rock - Blues Traveler, Freddie Jones, Dave Mathews, Rusted Root, Counting Crows, etc. Hootie sold a shitload of records and is stocked in every red state jukebox. Only the Beach Boys have friendlier audiences. I am not an animal, only folly for discussion... Oh yeah, how about Repo Man? B-Mac: Holy hell! What have I wrought? Does the below mean that Please Hammer Don't Hurt Them, Look What the Cat Dragged In, Wham!'s seminal Make It Big and the entire Night Ranger canon are also off limits? Actually, it has dawned on me that if the topic were the worst albums of the last 25 years trying to narrow that list would be exhausting. (On a personal note, I had a college roommate that insisted on playing that stupid Poison album 3-4 times a day for about a month when it was first out...an episode that still causes the occasional night sweats.) Spinney: Don't get me started. Talking Heads may not be everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn't mean they were not influential. Zounds, they were the catalyst for the new wave movement - a seminal band in rock history. Like 'em or not, they cannot be denied their rightful place in musical history. Walls: ...or at least their rightful place on any 2Walls endorsed list. Biff: Re: influential hip hop: Midnight Marauders or Low-End Theory by Tribe Called Quest. Fear of a Black Planet by Public Enemy. Straight Outta Compton by N.W.A. The Score by The Fugees. Greg: Nation of Millions over Fear of a Black Planet, don't you think? And what about The Chronic by Dre. Curtice: For an outside opinion on the divisive 25/25 question, I consulted Brian Walker, a longtime friend, vinyl collector, and music guru from South Carolina. He's friendly with David Cross, Tenacious D, and currently manages Earshot Music in Greenville, SC. He once drove from Wilmington, NC to NYC to see John Zorn perform with Mike Patton and drove back the same night after the show. Brian Walker: No order at all. Thanks for the question. 1. Metallica- Master Of Puppets 2. Faith No More-Angel Dust 3. Jane's Addiction-Nothing's Shocking 4. Slayer-Reign In Blood 5. Tom Waits- Rain Dogs 6. Fishbone-Truth & Soul 7. Mother Love Bone-Apple 8. Brad-Shame 9. Beastie Boys-Paul's Boutique 10. Brendan Benson-One Mississippi 11. DJ Shadow-Endtroducing... 12. Drive By-Truckers-Dirty South 13. Guns N' Roses-Appetite For Destruction 14. Masters Of Reality-Masters Of Reality 15. Nathan Larson-Jealous God 16. Prince-Sign 'o The Times 17. Ozzy Osbourne-Diary Of A Madman 18. Radiohead-The Bends 19. Satchel-EDC 20. Raphael Saadiq-Instant Vintage 21. Tool-Aenima 22. Wilco-Summer Teeth 23. Ween-Chocolate and Cheese 24. Ice Cube-AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted 25. Bill Hicks-Arizona Bay Walls: Hey, hey, hey....2 Walls does not outsource its opinions to third party vendors. Orcutt: And everyone's opinion is equally important. Cripes, I played with Richard Hell. But that sure doesn't mean I'm going to win my Fishbone Reality of My Surroundings vs. Truth and Soul argument. Maybe the best way to do the list is for everyone to submit their 'best' of the last 25 years. Everyone can decide for themselves if that means most influential, most important, or any other value judgement. Webb: Now that's a great fuckin' list - a little on the metal side, but I wouldn't be embarrassed to have any of these in regular rotation. Some good things to argue about too (Ice Cube over NWA? - Summer Teeth over Being There or Yankee Hotel Foxtrot? - and a comedy album?). But this is what the list should look like - some great stuff that people wouldn't normally think of, some automatics, and albums that are debatable but not embarrassing. Walls: It occurred to me that asking a question like “what are the greatest 25 albums in the last 25 years” is exactly like asking “what are the greatest 25 games in the last 25 years.” If you asked me this question, I’d give you 20 great baseball games and 5 great football games. But someone else might fill that list with college basketball games, hockey games, or some amazing wiffleball game at a family reunion. Hell, my brother-in-law would include some historic cricket game that had over 100,000 live spectators. It’s a completely open-ended, non-specific question. As I listen to this evolving discussion about B-Mac’s attempt to package a list of the greatest albums of our generation, I’m reminded of that moment in the movie Almost Famous where the main character William finds the box of albums that his older sister left behind for him, saying “These records will set you free”. As he flips through them, we see the Beach Boys, Miles Davis, Dylan, Zeppelin, etc. And that’s exactly what this list should be about. Yes, we all have our favorites, and we all have those albums that may have changed our lives – but are these albums considered artistic feats that have affected a generation, or have spawned a revolution in music? Primal Scream’s Screamadelica was part of the soundtrack at the pinnacle of my life’s most pivotal years, but I doubt it will make the list. Shouldn’t the artists on this list be the type of albums that we will force upon our kids in 20 years – saying “this is what real music sounds like”? Are we going to show our kids Hootie & The Blowfish? Did Fishbone really affect a generation? Going through all of the emails over the past week or so, I can see most of us are trying to gain recognition for some of the artists that have personally affected us, while dismissing others that we’re not fond of. I’m not a big fan of heavy metal or rap. But I can’t deny the influence that Metallica or NWA had on those genres. As far as blues or jazz – those genres have always skirted the fringes of popular music, inflicting enough influence to get noticed, but not enough to affect a generation. And while some artists have a huge body of work to point to as evidence of sustained influence (U2, Prince), there are those few that were barely a blip on the radar screen that everyone seems to point to as inspiration. And I’m a bit surprised that no one has mentioned Jeff Buckley.
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